H: Jane Constantinas, host
A: Anne Signal, nutritionist
J: Jill, mother
P: Pat, mother
C: Cheryl, mother
O: Oliver, toddler

H: Hello and welcome to the Parenting Show brought to you by Heinz, I'm Jane Constantinas. In todays' show we're going to be looking at the early months and years of a baby's life, the food they eat and when, starting with the whole business of weaning – when to do it and how to get it right. We're joined in the studio by some mums and their tiny tots who are going to be sharing their experiences with us, and also to make sure we understand how to do the very best for our little ones, we're joined by nutritionist Anne Signal. Anne, thanks for joining us. Tell us, how important is it to get the right foods at the right times?

A: It is an important time Jane because there comes a time when milk alone is not enough to keep the baby growing at the rate that they need to, and weaning's also the time for introducing all the lovely varieties and tastes in foods, and textures, and good habits now will hopefully carry through to when the child is older and enjoining the widest variety of foods as possible

H: And when is exactly the right time to start?

A: Well babies develop at different rates and so will be ready for solids at different times, but somewhere around 4-6 months is about right for most babies

H: And what are the dangers if you don't wean when the baby's ready?

A: Well they're sort of two fold really, the baby may not get all the nutrients they need to keep growing and also that you miss that time when they're ready and open and willing to try new foods, so they may be less accepting of texture and food later on if you don't do it at that right time

H: And what is it that is exactly happening inside the baby's body, is it just that the stomach's getting bigger or what?

A: The stomach's getting bigger, there comes a time when they can't take enough volume of milk to keep growing at the rate that they need to, so they need a more concentrated form of nutrients, so it's both about their physical development and also about learning to chew and manage food in the mouth, so it's both nutritional and developmental

H: And what is the right food to start with?

A: Well you know around the world people start with different foods, in the UK we tend to like cereals like baby rice, pureed vegetables, but as long as the food is pureed and is not salty or spicy then any food is suitable for starting off

H: And are there any safety concerns that we need to look for?

A: Well as I mentioned salty and spicy food is not appropriate for young babies, and it's important that we're not introducing any foods, food bugs with food, so that everything is clean and safe to feed, that's important, we don't want to introduce a food hazard to a baby, and that – but that's really it, as long as mum is with baby while he's feeding, not left alone and so on, then we can cover those safety issues

H: Great, thanks very much. So for the rest of the show we're going to be talking to each of our three mums about their individual experiences of feeding their children, and we're also going to find out how they got involved in the Mum's Own range of baby foods, so first of all I'm going to talk to Jill about introducing new foods and flavours, Jill, hi, thanks for coming in

J: Hello there

H: What stage are you at right now?

J: I'm currently really just beginning to start to wean Alexander, I've been trying now for about 4 weeks and it's going quite well, we're persevering, we're getting there

H: Now the word persevering makes it sound like it's not going quite according to plan?

J: No I don't think it ever does, does it really? You know I've started him on more basic things, getting him used to tastes and textures, and just to a spoon really, more than anything

H: And what particular flavours does he most like at the moment?

J: Sweet. Sweet things, deserts or the puddings and the milky flavours, he does like the milky flavours like the custards and the rice, the puddings and things like that

H: Anne is that very common that they have a natural taste for sweet things?

A: It is yes, because they're moving on from milk which – breast milk and formula, both have a slightly sweet taste, so that's the familiar taste for them, and the other flavours – bitter, sour, and so on have to be learned, so they don't naturally like those flavours at the first try. So yes it's very natural

H: So which more savoury flavours are you trying to introduce at the moment?

J: More of the – the like root vegetables, the swede, the carrot, parsnip – parsnip's particularly – sweet potato

H: Sweet potato, yes

J: And he's, he's just getting onto that really. I was a bit concerned because like I said I've only been going for 4 weeks but you tend to just want to get there quicker I think, you know and he's now starting with those types of tastes and actually eating them, he seems to enjoy those tastes

H: Are you doing it very differently second time around?

J: Not really no. I had more time the first time, obviously with it being, with Oliver being the only child, so I did tend to do a lot more of my own food, purely because of the time. This time it's more of a mixture. I'm doing my own food where I can, freezing it, but I do tend to rely on jars as well really so it's half and half really I would say. A balance that way

H: And we're going to be meeting Oliver a little bit later on. Just this business of persevering with a flavour. So they reject it, literally, first time. How do you get them to like a flavour?

A: Yes I mean perseverance, pardon me, perseverance is the key, and we've worked with a psychologist from Birmingham university, she's done a lot of work on this, food acceptance and rejection, and she said it can take up to 14 attempts to help a baby learn to like the taste of something like broccoli that's got a slightly bitter taste, so you know don't be discouraged the first or second time reject – keep trying and babies will learn to like the foods they're given. They're not born with a set of pre-determined likes and dislikes, they will adjust to their environment

H: And in terms of nutritional value, are say – you know we're always hearing we should be eating more green vegetables too. Are green vegetables more valuable than say fruit?

A: Well no I mean the key thing with nutrition, with weaning is to get some sort of iron into the baby's diet, so fortified cereals and rusks are good for this, and also meat. Meat isn't often the first food mums think about when weaning but it's very nutritious and very suitable for young babies. So that's from the nutrition point of view, and then from the, you know widening the baby's experience and taste, all fruits and vegetables really are good to introduce, and really by the age of 9, 12 months the more the better is the message, yes.

H: And what about meat? Is that something that you're thinking about right now or?

J: It is actually yes. I mean I'd always thought that meat should have been introduced a little bit later, I wanted him to get used the fruit, to the vegetable, to that type of taste. I tend to follow the same type of pattern I did with Oliver really, I didn't think to introduce meat until Oliver was about 6 months old so it's something I am thinking about at the moment – the chicken, turkey, you know, the milder taste if you like

A: Yes easier to puree maybe?

J: I'm actually thinking about fish as well. Is fish something you can do at 6 months?

A: Yes indeed, yes and it's great to get children to like fish because it's not very common is it, and it's such a healthy food

H: Yes. Which other green vegetables are you introducing now?

J: The broccoli. Broccoli's quite a good one – I've been doing peas, he had peas as well, and the like trimmed green beans, everything in the blender really, it's just to –

H: And do you do a sort of medley of green stuff or do you do them individually?

J: Both. What I tend to do is do individual vegetables –

H: See we're even talking about green vegetables and he's playing up!

J: I know. I tend to do individual vegetables because then I find that you can put cubes – I tend to do them and freeze them, and you can put cubes together and then make tastes up at a later date if you know what I mean, but I do tend to do medleys as well where I just – I just really, trial and error really, a little bit of experiment, you know I'll taste it myself, put that together, that goes and we just tend to do it that way really, you know it's no set pattern

H: Fantastic, well thanks very much for sharing that with us, and we'll see you again later in the programme, with Oliver of course. And next we're going to be looking at home cooking. So home cooking. Pat's joined us in the studio now with her twins Bruno and Francesca, thanks for coming in. Pat what's your approach to home cooking?

P: Well really I'm very relaxed about it, I just want them to eat anything, and for me I wanted them to eat what I eat and to make a big batch of something that we're all sharing and is quicker so we save time

H: Fantastic, well shall we three go and actually do some food preparation and do you think the twins perhaps would like to have a bit of time with their dad?

P: Sounds like they want their dad now, yes – you want daddy?

H: Well we're talking about food a lot, so we thought we'd have a go at actually preparing some. Anne's going to tell us everything we need to know about puree and Pat you're here with us to share some of your personal experiences of feeding your year old twins. Tell us – pureeing – what are the basic principals?

A: Well you can puree fruits that are ripe already, they don't need cooking, so mashing or blending quite nicely. With vegetables it's generally easier to cook first and I've got some cubed cooked vegetables here that we can puree down

H: And when you say cooked, that's steamed or boiled is it?

A: Boiled yes

H: No salt obviously

A: That's right. So try not to overcook because the heat will destroy the vitamins if you carry on cooking too long. So just enough to make them soft. And then you can puree with a little bit of the cooking water, or a little bit of milk to help blend. It's as simple as that really

H: And which vegetables lend themselves best to being pureed?

A: I suppose the root vegetables are very nice, potato and carrot and parsnip. Broccoli and other things maybe not, and leafy vegetables, cabbage maybe not so easy to make a smooth puree from early on, but absolutely fine slightly textured later on.

H: Ok, well let's get down to the business of creating a puree from –

A: Right

H: What have you got here?

A: Yes we've got some cooked butternut squash which is lovely for babies because it's got a slightly sweet taste. It's a bit fiddly to get the skin off, but –

H: Have to get into the corners

A: Yes. But it tastes lovely. And parsnip again is a slightly sweet taste, very nice for babies, and here we've got some cooked sweet potato and swede mixed together so that's' a nice mixture of root vegetables. Well apart from the squash. So we're just going to add a little bit of hot water

H: Ok

A: To help

H: Because otherwise it can be a little bit too dry –

A: A little bit thick, yes. I think so. And that should be fine. I think that just needs a little mix around to get the bigger lumps down

H: Oh this brings back memories!

A: So I think we can have a look at the texture now.

H: So that's slightly lumpy isn't it?

A: Yes it is, I mean depending on how well cooked the vegetables are, that looks absolutely fine for a baby whose got used to some texture of food in their mouth, but just moving on to slightly mashed texture

H: So what sort of age group are we thinking then?

A: Well once your baby's got the hang of the spoon and food in their mouth, within say 3 or 4 weeks of starting on purees you can move on to more texture

H: Oh ok

A: It's really just getting them used to the whole process at first

H: But the very early stages, they should be having something which is more like that sort of texture

A: Completely smooth, yes. That's -you know so you're not surprising them with a lump in there early on, you're just letting them take the food from the spoon and move it back in their mouth with a sort of liquid swallow, without any chewing

H: And this is what, this is the sort of intermediary stage is it?

A: That's right yes, in the Heinz range that would be from about 7 months, so it's soft lumps but in a thick puree

H: Right

A: So that the food can be mushed in the tongue with the palette without being chewed. That's the idea of those ones

H: Great so what – Pat what's been your experience of this whole pureeing business?

P: Well I think I've been really lucky because I started off with a hand blender, and I microwaved everything to make it quicker, and also because I think it keeps much more –

H: Does it, does it?

P: I don't know if it's much more nutrients – there's always that think about it leaching out into the water

H: Is that true though, because you do hear this?

A: I think so because you're not throwing away the cooking water, so whatever's in the food you're keeping

H: Because I've also heard the opposite about microwaving and baby and – you don't have any concerns?

A: It's all to do with time and temperature with loss of nutrients

H: Ok, alright

P: I think the thing for me was just the speed of it, so I would use a hand blender, and obviously the purees that I started with were just exactly the type of vegetables, or even fruit and the consistency that you have there, and then all I started to do was to be rather less thorough with the hand blender, so I did leave a few lumps in. Because I've got twins, the problem was that they were both at exactly the same stage, so I used to kind of scrape the lumps to one side of the bowl, the soft stuff to the other and Bruno would get the soft stuff and Francesca would get a few lumps

H: So she was ahead of him?

P: Because she had teeth

H: Oh right

P: She's got 8 teeth and he's got 2 little pegs sticking out there

H: That's interesting, I would never had thought that of twins that they would have to be at different stages

P: And the thing is everyone always thinks, oh you have to – you can't feed them out of the same bowl, but you know 2 lots of washing up, 2 lots of it – no no no, and the same spoon even as well I have to own up to so – and all the twins books tell you that it's ok to do that, so I felt – I didn't feel as though I was being too naughty there, but basically that's how I would do it, and now they're at the stage where they can have lumps but they have to be things that are soft and just dissolve in their mouth, so this is their lunch, I brought this with me

H: Oh yes

P: This is what they would have today, in fact they are going to have today

H: Is there enough for all of us, it looks delicious!

P: It's just basmati rice, tomato sauce and then green lentils and some carrots in it as well and it – it isn't difficult to make, it's actually really easy. Just onions, diced up carrots, sweat it for about 5 minutes, throw in tinned tomatoes, leave it for an hour, and then tinned lentils throw them in at the end and that's it, and actually you have to whiz up the tomato sauce, but everything else is just left whole

H: And nutrionally-speaking Anne, is this a perfect balanced meal?

A: Very good, yes because you've got the mixture of the protein of the lentils and the rice, complimenting each other, so if the children were vegetarian this would be a perfect way to ensure they get the right mix of protein

P: I did my homework

H: And I think you've been quite adventurous or was it actually a bit of a mistake with the twins?

P: No I decided I would be quite adventurous because we – we love our food and I wanted them to eat what we were eating, and also I – food is a pleasure, it's not only fuel, and I so want them to be open-minded and try everything. So very early on, we gave them – well the first thing was onions boiled in stock, say, so that was very mild, but then we had garlic. We accidentally gave them chilli when I made a tomato sauce and in the very early stages put some chilli flakes in, forgetting them, hadn't put salt or anything in it obviously, and when I tasted it, I thought no that's really mild –

H: And how did they react?

P: They gobbled it up, it was fine

H: Fantastic

P: The only disadvantage is just the smell of garlic baby breath which is not very attractive and you don't want to be woken up by that in the morning

H: Let's not go there. Thank very much, really interesting. Thank you for those tips. And in fact what we're going to do next is talk a little bit more about lumpy food. Ok so we're going to move on now to when the child is a little bit older and start thinking about lumpy foods, and finger foods, and Cheryl is here with Jacob to share her experiences of that with us. Hi Cheryl, thank you for coming in to talk to us – and Jacob of course. What stage are you at now?

C: We're at the lumpy stage. I still mash it as such because Jacob's got limited amount of teeth, he's just got his incisors and the bottom teeth, so I still have to slightly mush the food as such

H: And what foods exactly are you mashing and turning into lumpiness?

C: Right, well I started off with root vegetables but now we've introduced meat and chicken as such, so he does enjoy the combination

H: And generally he's accepting everything that you're offering are you?

C: Yes at first when I initially weaned him, it was a bit of a struggle but we managed, and he's fine now

H: Anne, what are there – are there any golden rules about introducing lumpy, more coarser textures?

A: Well as Cheryl said, it can be a tricky time because babies have a gag reflex so they sometimes gag when the lump hits the back of their tongue. It's not a choking, but some mums get a bit fearful when they see that, so it is, it's important to keep the development moving and to help the baby learn to handle lumps in their mouth, but it can be a slightly stressful time in that there is that potential for choking and mums need to watch the baby carefully and see how they're managing with the food.

H: Yes. And what are the ideal – we talked about root vegetables – what are the ideal foods to start off, is it the same repertoire as for pureeing?

A: Yes I mean mashed fruit, mashed potato and vegetables and meat and so on, it's just trying to adjust the texture from puree towards lumpy in a sort of a stage-by-stage way

H: And in terms of age, I know it's different for each baby really

A: Yes

H: But when roughly is the right age to –

A: Around 6-10 months is around the time, depending on when the weaning was started, then let baby get used to the feel of food in their mouth, get used to the spoon, get used to taking food, and then some soft finger foods are a good idea then, like say quite a ripe banana or some very well cooked carrot sticks that baby can self-feed, and then onto mashed and eventually chopped foods later on

H: Are you doing finger foods as well Cheryl?

C: Well I have tried him but because of the teeth, again, I find that he slightly gags a bit

H: Oh ok

C: But I'm going to persevere and do it

H: What have you tried him on?

C: Well we like the Heinz fingers, they're like rusks

H: Oh yes

C: And he quite likes them but I have to supervise him quite well with that, but he does enjoy it, yes

H: Now what about drinks, what do you give them to supplement the solid food that they're having Anne?

A: Well as weaning progresses they're having slightly less milk, slightly more food as time goes on, so they will need to have some other liquid in their diet, so water is a good choice or dilute fruit juice for example. And it doesn't need to be excessive amounts because some babies and toddlers will by habit like to fill up on drink and then not be hungry when it's meal time

H: Yes I've heard that you shouldn't really give like a sweet drink too close to food time

A: No I mean –

H: No?

A: I mean at this stage a little drink with a meal is nice, and then later on maybe a drink as a snack, a drink of milk as a snack in between meals is good

H: Oh ok, how much milk is Jacob having at the moment?

C: He has 3 bottles a day now, he used to have 5-6 or 7 because he's a very hungry baby, but 3 in the day now so he's reduced a bit

H: Right. And you say he's a hungry baby, how's he doing on his growth chart?

C: He's doing quite well actually, he's within the region now, actually a little bit over height-wise, my health visitor says, so he's doing very well

H: Lovely. This teeth issue, obviously Cheryl it's something you're concerned about?

C: Yes

H: Does it matter how many teeth a baby's got?

A: Not really, no, they will gum food, especially soft food, so you know the chewing, development of chewing doesn't really have to depend on them having teeth, because I think my youngest child was 12 months before we saw any teeth so he was obviously eating everything by then, with no teeth

H: Now Cheryl, you've been rather inventive with your own recipes and you've got one of these Mum's Own – pumpkin, swede and lamb, that's fantastic, with your name on it! How did that come about?

C: Well I entered a competition with my first son, Nathan, when I was pregnant actually, and I was successful, they picked me and said they wanted to use my food and to have my name on the front of the jar, so I've got a little bit of celebrity status there!

H: And did you do a lot of experimenting with your own recipes?

C: Yes and the pumpkin side of it comes from my mum, in the Caribbean she uses a lot of pumpkin, I'd say butternut squashes – stuff like that

H: Because they're very sweet aren't they as well?

C: Yes sweet

H: Yes. Just to go back to the drinks thing, is there a danger that you can give your baby too much milk?

C: Yes I mean the whole idea of weaning is to move slightly away from milk and towards more solid food, so that by a year of age, ideally the child would have about a pint of milk a day, and the rest – so about half and half, milk and food by about a year of age. That's a nice way to think about it. But yes just before weaning a baby could be drinking a litre of milk a day, but down to about half a litre at a year

H: Right.

A: So it's a gradual tailing off

H: And it should always be full fat milk shouldn't it?

A: Yes well before 12 months it should be breast or formula milk, and then after that, that's right, full fat milk

H: Brilliant, thank you very much, thank you very much for coming in to talk to us, and to you Jacob! And next we're going to move onto the toddler years. Ok so now in the final part of the show we're going to look at food for toddlers, and then move on to family food. Jill's back with us, and Alex, and Oliver's joined us. Hello Oliver?

O: Hello

H: How are you?

O: Fine

H: Good. Jill tell us a little bit about your experience for toddlers?

J: I really wanted to continue very much as I had begun with the weaning. I wanted meal times to be family meal times, and I wanted Oliver to really eat the same types of foods that we did, particularly with the vegetables, the meat, and it stood us in quite good stead really because Oliver's happy to try lots of different flavours, even now, not too keen on the spicy foods, the chillies and the curries but more than happy to eat meat, roast dinners, vegetables, things like that, and to experiment. And all I really did for the next stage for weaning was to not puree the food as much and to not cut it, you know to break it down as much, so it became finger food, and then obviously introducing eating with knives and forks and kind of done from there really. That seemed quite an easy transition

O: And the knives

H: Using knives, good for you. Anne that sounds like a perfect example of how to move on through the toddler years. Are there any other tips you can give us?

A: Well I mean some mums do find their toddlers become more fussy about food, and I think from a nutrition point of view their growth is slowing down a little, so they're not as hungry and ready to try new foods as when they were babies, so the key with toddlers, say from 12 months onwards, is to give regular meals, with nutritious snacks in between, because they can't physically eat huge quantity, and they need the nutritious snacks to keep them going in between meals

H: And how do you tackle this business of – I mean my 2 year old has suddenly decided she doesn't like peas. She used to like peas, now she's gone off them. What do I do?

A: Well I mean the best advice is not to push it, not to try and force her to eat what she doesn't want to, so just keep trying lots of other fruits and vegetables to take their place for the moment. Really just insisting she eats peas – I've done that with my child, it doesn't work, and you know it's going to increase their feelings of revulsion at that particular food, so it's much better just to take it away for a while, and keep trying with other fruits and vegetables

H: Ok. Jill did you have in mind different food groups, was it that sort of scientific when you were doing it?

J: Not at all, no it wasn't. It wasn't, it was like I say just to fit in line with what we were eating, I didn't want to start doing separate meals for my husband and I and then a separate child's meal, I wanted to keep it as relaxed, as family-orientated as I could, and no I wasn't like into food groups as such, it was just what we were eating and try to keep all the nutrition and the healthiness in there really

H: Are there any foods – I mean we all know about nuts – anything else that should be avoided at this stage?

A: Well as you say foods that could be a choking hazard, or that are too salty or too sugary, so you want to focus on the foods that are going to give the child the nutrients they need. But it's probably worth saying that you don't need to overdo it with fruits and vegetables, that 5 small portions a day is great for toddlers but they do need the fat and the calories from the other foods that - so they shouldn't have a low fat diet

H: So what would be the main food groups that we should all try to get in each day?

A: Well for toddlers – cereals, pasta, bread and potatoes are very important. The meat, fish and eggs sort of protein foods, and dairy foods are still very important obviously, so about a pint of milk a day, and if your toddler doesn't like milk, cheese and yogurt are perfectly good in delivering the protein and calcium and so on that they need

H: Great

A: And fruits and vegetables but the advice for 5 a day doesn't strictly speaking apply to young children

H: Yes

A: But they should have several portions a day of fruit and vegetables

H: Great. Oliver, your mum made a very special recipe just for you, didn't she? Tell us about that. And what happened to it

O: Fruity chicken casserole

H: What's it called again?

O: Fruity chicken casserole

H: Fruity chicken casserole? Fantastic. And what happened to it, show us

O: Mummy made it for me when I was a baby

H: Yes and then it got made into this, and it's now in jars

O: Yes

H: In the supermarket

O: Yes

H: That's fantastic

O: It's –

H: It's what?

O: In mummy's food as well

H: Yes. That's brilliant. And did you like all the food that mum made for you?

O: Yes

H: So you like trying all sorts of new things do you?

O: Yes

H: That's brilliant, yes. Tell us about the recipe that you came up with then

J: As I said really, I've made a lot or all of my meals for Oliver really from being a baby, it was just it was easy and more convenient at the time, and when I got to the stage of introducing meats, the first meats I introduced was chicken and turkey, just because it broke down well and I could puree it quite well and it came quite fine. Oliver also had a sweet taste, but naturally with fruits, so I thought how could I sweeten the flavour without actually putting sugar with it, so I actually tried some of the fruits, I put some grapes with it and peaches actually. I've since tried other things, I did apple, apple's quite a good sweet –

H: Yes lovely

J: And things like that, and it just made it more palatable really and it just went from there

H: Fantastic. Well well done

J: Thank you

H: Anne just on this whole toddler feeding thing, give us a few suggestions for snacks for toddlers?

A: Well milk itself as a drink is a good snack, little sandwiches with some smooth peanut butter or some spread or cheese spread are good. Chopped up fruit and vegetables, salads, salad vegetables, a rusk or a biscuit is fine occasionally, so those are all good snacks for toddlers

H: Fantastic well thank you very much for that. I'm afraid we've come to the end of the show, so my thanks to Anne and Jill and all the mums who've come in to talk to us, and Oliver as I'm reminded. If you want more information and more tips about feeding your little ones then go to www.tinytums.co.uk or you can just click on the link at the bottom of the screen. Thanks very much for joining us, bye for now. Oh too much darling.